My conversation with the wonderful Jamie Stewart of Xiu Xiu. Their latest album, ’13” Frank Beltrame Italian Stiletto with Bison Horn Grips’, or ’13”’ was released back in September of last year via Polyvinyl.

Diya: Good evening, Jamie. It’s so lovely to see you. How are you doing on this fine September evening?

Jamie: It’s actually uncharacteristically nice. The weather in Berlin is sometimes–which is where I am right now–famously hideous. But today is uncharacteristically nice.

Diya: That’s good. So we’ll start from the beginning. I did some digging and learned that Xiu Xiu was formed in ‘02 and inspired by a Chinese film of a similar name, Xiu Xiu: The Sent Down Girl. I know Xiu Xiu’s sound takes a pretty eclectic approach to experimental music inspired by a wide variety of sonic influences, and we’ll get more into those soon–but first, can you tell me a little bit more about your musical background and how it informs Xiu Xiu’s artistic philosophy to this point?

Jamie: My dad and my uncle were both very successful musicians, so there was always…The idea of being a musician was always very present when I was growing up. This is not uncommon. A lot of musicians don’t listen to that much music at home. They’ve, you know, been playing music all day, so they just need a break from any of that kind of input. So there wasn’t a whole lot of music played in my house when I was growing up. But my dad–largely to his credit, and in some ways kind of annoyingly–was very particular about what music I could listen to. Because of that, he exposed me to, like, the best of the best music from the time I was very, very young. And as you noted before, I have pretty eclectic taste, and it largely comes from that. So from the time I was a kid, I was listening to Motown and Prince and a lot of classical music and field recordings and a lot of funk. And then through friends of mine, I started getting into goth and kind of more dream-poppy things and ska and reggae. But because I had grown up with my dad making it abundantly clear that some music is extraordinary and some music sucks, I kind of developed an ear for quality at a pretty young age. So, you know, the post punk and goth and ska and reggae that I was listening to was also the best of the best. So in addition to having pretty eclectic taste from the time I was a kid, I’m also an incredible snob when it comes to music, and I don’t feel bad about it at all.

Diya: [Laughs] Yeah, I definitely see what you mean. Currently–like being a music director at a radio station–it is kind of my job to be a snob.

Jamie: You’ve gotta be, right?! The cream needs to rise to the top! That’s your job.

Diya: Yeah, definitely. And it’s interesting. I like that you said that you weren’t really apologetic about being a snob. And I think that’s interesting too, because it just kind of reminds me of the wave of anti-intellectualism we have–it’s like…Oh no, you think about the art you listen to. What a big deal! So that’s interesting. I’m glad you brought that up. But it is really exciting to see Xiu Xiu’s progression over the years. And there are some really beautiful lush sounds on 13”, namely the evolving keys and drones on “Arp Omni” and “Piña, Coconut and Cherry”, coupled with a psychedelic approach to quintessentially Xiu Xiu-sounding drums and noise. And I noticed that 13” features more melodic instrumentals that almost read as cinematic to me, like they might belong in some sort of oddball action film. And I adore that. I noticed that the vocals on this album are very expressive and beautiful, while also shape shifting to the highs and lows of every song. And one other thing I enjoy about the vocals in particular is the dynamic range and the texture. So moreover, I’m always interested in knowing how the choices were made in terms of the instrumentation, melodic and rhythmic elements of 13” in its entirety. Can you tell me a little bit more about your creative process on 13”, along with its sonic and emotional landscapes and how they show up through some of Xiu Xiu’s songwriting, vocal and instrumental choices?

Jamie: I’m not trying to skirt this question, but we really try as hard as we can not to consciously think about those things. So it’s a little bit difficult for me to answer. I think a lot of musicians find themselves in this state, just very much trying to listen to what’s happening and be directed by the muse or space or the energy, wherever music comes from, and just trying to get out of our own way and let those things happen and have it be very much–this is very corny, and forgive me for saying this, um, but I don’t know how else to say it–more like a subconscious or spiritual writing process or maybe almost, like, lower-brain-stem-kind of physical instinctual writing process. I mean, it’s impossible to do that and be a human. I mean, you would just become a bag of jelly. [Laughs] You have to have some higher brain function to survive. But I mean, the goal is just to allow things to occur. So it’s difficult to talk about the process when we’re actively trying to avoid articulating what the process is. (Diya: Yeah!) I mean, this is the goal. I mean, we fail at this all the time and overthink things ad infinitum, but we’re always trying to just be led rather than forcing things to happen. I think that’s the case for a lot of aesthetic expression.

Diya: Yeah, and I think that is honestly in itself an answer because it answers the question, like, it talks about how your process is affected. And even if it’s not a conscious thing, it’s more subconscious–that in itself is such a valuable process, you know, so yeah. Thank you. I mentioned the oddball action film element that came to my mind, but moreover, initially listening to 13” and looking at the album cover, et cetera, I saw the knife motifs as going hand in hand with that “parody-of-bravado-sense” as well. And I enjoy how there’s an all-encompassing chaos to this album as well. It explores all these different corners of emotionality. I love how it’s simultaneously jarring and hypnotic, and how saturated it is. There seems to be kind of a maximalist sound to this album, even on tracks that are more sparse because the vocals and the synths themselves are so full of emotion. I was kind of reminded of another artist I spoke to a while back, JRCG. When I was listening to this, I mostly drew that parallel because both 13” and JRCG’s album Grim Iconic…(Sadistic Mantra) have a similarly psychedelic and saturated sound with what reads to me as a very sonically colorful environment. Another thing I’m reminded of upon listening to 13” is hypnagogic pop, maybe. And I know Xiu Xiu is influenced by global instrumental traditions, but moreover, I’d like to know–what were some of the main inspirations for 13”? And this could be, of course, other media, music, literature, film, spiritual occurrences, religious epiphanies, artistic manifestos, niche switchblades, etc.

Jamie: It’s a funny record for us. I did not really grow up listening to rock and roll and psychedelic music. I like 50s rock and roll a lot and always have, but, like, rock music and psychedelic music. The drummer that we play with, David Kendrick, is a generation older than Angela and me. He grew up in the 60s and that’s really, like, where his blood is. And he exposed Angela and me to 60s psych rock and 70s psych rock, which we had never really checked out. But I mean, any opportunity to listen to something new is very exciting. So we started going down this rabbit hole of music that has a long history, but that we were pretty unfamiliar with, and started thinking, okay, you know, the least characteristic thing we could do is do a psych rock record that has nothing to do with our history at all, really, or our particular interest, you know. But this door opened, and like I said before, we’re just trying to–if the door opens–walk through it rather than really question it. Although…[Laughs] I’m a massive fan of Nick Cave and Einstürzende Neubauten–the singer Blixa Bargeld was also in the Bad Seeds, and he ended up quitting the Bad Seeds because…Or he famously said, when he quit the Bad Seeds, “I did not join a rock and roll band to play rock and roll.” And we got about halfway through making this record and I heard that quote, and I was like, “Oh my god, I didn’t join a rock band to play rock and roll.” Like, what are we doing? What is this record? But we really liked what was coming out. And then at the same time, the philosophy is not to really question what’s happening–just to try to follow it. But we were in a sort of deep state of conflict because we were really going down a path that has nothing to do with who we are. But at the same time, like I said, we were happy with the results. So there was a lot. I guess the inspiration for this record came from psych rock, but also from the deep conflict of finding ourselves in the midst of something that we really liked but didn’t want to like. I guess I sort of, like, hung myself by being too much of a snob. And, you know, there were times when we felt really painted into a corner and freaked out by what was happening, but then just had to remind ourselves not to think about it and just to let it turn into what it seemed like it really needed to turn into. So there was a lot of sort of curious–and I mean, struggle is too hard a word, but just we were laughing at times, you know, but being like, there’s like a lot of guitar. There’s never been so much riffy guitar on a Xiu Xiu record, like, ever, ever, ever. And that makes up, like, 80% of this record. So I guess those are the main influences–having no idea what we’re doing, questioning what we’re doing, [and] at the same time trying not to question what we’re doing. And then 60s psych rock. But I guess being in that kind of spiral is very psychedelic anyway. So I suppose that now that I say that, it kind of supports itself in psychedelia.

Diya: Yeah, certainly. And I think that it’s interesting that you bring up how it’s psychedelic as well, because I feel like that kind of unknown force that pushes you to make something that you might not necessarily have the intention set on making is, in itself, like a psychedelic process. That’s really interesting to hear about.

Jamie: Yeah, that’s well put. That makes me feel a little better about it. Thanks. [Laughs]

Diya: [Laughs] Alright, thank you. I’m also interested in the album artwork for 13”. It’s bright and it circles back to the topic of blades that we mentioned. And I’d love to know the story behind the art and why it was chosen to represent this album.

Jamie: Oh, it’s kind of based on the album title. Usually about halfway through making a record, the title will appear from space. I don’t know if it really consciously guides things, but it becomes part of the overall aesthetic of the record. For this one, we didn’t really come up with the title until after everything was finished, but one habit of ours–and I can’t even really explain why this happens–is while we’re making a record, certain objects are just around. I have a really big switchblade collection, you know, and certain objects are around–I live in Europe now, and all the best switchblades come from Italy, so the collection is growing precipitously. So there’s these objects around, and they kind of make it into the sort of aesthetic concept of the record. Not in a way that I can articulate. You know, with almost every record post-2014, I could list specifically what these physical objects that were around were, that had this little magic fairy dust on them. Anyway, for this record, among many other things, the switchblade collection was kind of–again, I can’t say how–but making its way into the aesthetic energy or underpinnings of this record. I sound like such a hippie, sorry…I wrote down, like, 10 potential album titles for Angela. Usually this is kind of how our process works–I’ll have 10 ideas and she’ll say “that one” and 99% of the time, the one that she chooses is very definitely the best one. So I wrote down these 10 titles. I don’t even remember any of the other ones. They’re all way more normal than this one. I was really hoping that she would pick this one because it’s, for us, really very different [from] any of our record titles and kind of insane. A little bit stupid. Definitely ridiculous, but unusual, at least. And as is her superpower, she just said, “okay, that one” and I was really glad, because I didn’t want to influence her, but that was the one I was hoping she would pick. So there’s that. Then we have had this symbol to represent the band, which is this Atlantic X, like, this triple X thing. Essentially, it’s a type of St. Anthony’s Cross, but not really a St. Anthony’s Cross. And with each record, we’ll have a different version of it. And we made this one out of–da da da da da, big surprise–switchblades.

Diya: There you go.

Jamie: Okay, that was a very long story for a very simple answer.

Diya: No, it’s good. It gives me a lot of background as well. And it’s kind of nice because, again, going back to the whole psychedelic and more subliminal side of things, having switchblades around–

Jamie: Yeah, and then the psych thing also is on the…Sparkly rainbow mirror is the background of the record with which is also–you know, anything reflective, anything shiny is sort of a psychedelic cliche. But it looked kind of cool in and of itself.

Diya: Shiny object that can hurt you: Switchblade.

Jamie: [Laughs] Yeah, I never thought about that, you’re right.

Diya: [Laughs] Yeah. That is really interesting though. It’s the subliminal influence of what’s around you really shaping the record, for sure. It probably goes without saying that I’m definitely interested in talking to you about the music videos for 13”. The video for “Common Loon” is raunchy and colorful, and it reminds me a lot of John Waters’s irreverent and surreal comedic approach to portraying things like sexuality in his films. And the video for “Veneficium” feels a little bit more focused on the internal conflict than the bright shock value of “Common Loon”, but it still maintains that overall surrealism. “Arp Omni”’s music video is much more subdued and takes on a more gothic approach from what I can see, which I think really complements the beauty of the song. And I noticed the same–again–emotionally all-encompassing chaos across all these videos and would love to know more. Can you tell me a little bit more about the choice to include all these visuals in your music videos and how they function in tandem with the album’s themes?

Jamie: For this one, we really didn’t have very much to do with the making of the videos for the last several Angela Seo, my bandmate has made the majority of the music videos, but for this one she needed a break and also just wanted to…She has a particular aesthetic and wanted to not continue to insert her aesthetic into what we were doing. All three of them were done in totally different ways. For “Common Loon”, we’re friends with–and massive fans of–Alicia McDazzler, who is the performance artist who did the video. And we gave her the song–it’s hard to describe what her videos are like. She’s a middle aged adult white woman, pretty tall, pretty physically strong. And you know, she’ll dress as a Smurf–like a half-naked, sort of weirdly sexualized Smurf–and then, like, dump chocolate syrup all over herself and roll around in front of, like, a Quiznos, or something like that. She’ll just set up these pop culture, dadaistic, sort of amusingly sexual, confrontational-but-in-a-funny-way scenarios, essentially. They’re much more creative than I’m making them sound. Infinitely more creative. Always very funny, super, super creative, and kind of jaw-droppingly uncomfortable to watch, but in a totally engaging way. And we just said, “Okay, like, go your craziest…We love what you do…Just basically insert yourself into what the song is…It doesn’t have to have anything to do with what is happening in the song at all.” We just wanted to have these two things happen in parallel. It’s my favorite music video we have ever done. It’s completely bananas in the best possible way. For the one for “Veneficium”–even though I’m in it, I have to say I’ve never actually seen it. I don’t really know what it’s about. I didn’t have anything to do with that one really. Similarly to “Arp Omni”–I’ve seen that one. But it’s hard to even say it’s a music video. It’s almost more of an atmospheric film that goes along with the song.

Diya: Yeah, I think you guys have it as a “visualizer” on YouTube as well.

Jamie: Yeah, I kind of hate that word but…I’m not sure how to describe it. It’s somewhere between a music video and an art film. I thought it was very, very beautiful, but I didn’t have anything to do with that one either–I mean, other than watching it and thinking that the person who did it did a really beautiful job. I had no input into it at all, other than to say, “That’s beautiful. Go forth.”

Diya: Green light.

Jamie: Yeah, yeah.

Diya: Okay, that’s cool. Xiu Xiu has some tour dates coming up. So what are some of the venues and locations that you look forward to playing at the most?

Jamie: Well, the shows that we have coming up…We’re doing some new music that’s a kind of tribute to the film Eraserhead by David Lynch. At the moment, it’s not really set. We have a record of it coming out next year. They’re all places we have not played before because it’s not like a “rock show” at all. It’s an experimental show, a lot more formal, a lot less physical, almost like an art installation. We’re not playing in the normal clubs we would play in, we’re playing at film festivals also. So I can’t say I’m looking forward to any of [the venues] in particular because I have never been to any of them. But I can say I am looking forward to all of them, but not more one than the other, because they’re all unfamiliar.

Diya: Right. Yes. So let’s talk gear. What would you say is the most essential piece of gear to the particular sound of 13”?

Jamie: Oh, geez…Well–just because of obsessiveness, nerdiness, and just–you know, we’ve been a band for a long time, so we’ve had a chance to collect a lot of gear. We have a lot of fuzz petals. I couldn’t pick one, but I would say they’re–not a vast, but a very select–collection of fuzz pedals, probably. There’s a fuzz pedal on almost every single instrument on the whole record.

Diya: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That’s kind of what I was referring to when I said “a very quintessentially Xiu Xiu helping of noise” [earlier], because I feel like fuzz is a really common element.

Jamie: Yeah, definitely. We were certainly trying to explode it as much as possible. And the person who mixed it is a genius record producer and mixing engineer. John Congleton is a good friend of mine and someone we’ve worked with a lot. We also told him just to take it further. So as heavy as we thought we had made it, he made it 50 times heavier. He’s an absolute master at that.

Diya: Yeah. So for the last question–another gear question–if you were stranded on a desert island and could only take three pieces of gear with you, what would they be and why?

Jamie: Oh, these are music gear, I assume.

Diya: Yes.

Jamie: Okay…God, I wish I had a more romantic answer. I’m just trying to think of a practical answer so I wouldn’t lose my mind while I was on this desert island.  I mean, a Pro Tools setup, which is so I could do some recording…I can’t answer that! I’m really sentimental and sort of anthropomorphize gear, which is an insane person’s thing to do. I don’t think I could only pick three. Our timbre is a massive part of our writing process, and a variety of timbres comes from having a decent collection of gear. This desert island thing is too much pressure. [Laughs] I mean, I’ve taken it way too seriously, as if I’m going to find myself in this actual situation. I’ll just tell you some gear. I’m in our studio right now. Okay. This synth. [Gestures] It has a warning on the back telling you that it can catch on fire. It’s called the Valkyrie by Trongotronics. It’s the gnarliest noise synth of all time. [Gestures elsewhere] This is the Erica SYNTRX. The Erica SYNTRX is my favorite synth on earth. What else…

Diya: Is that a modular set behind you?

Jamie: Oh yeah, like, horrifying money-suck nerd island.

Diya: Awesome.

Jamie: Anyway, sorry, it’s too big a question. It’s too big a problem. I shouldn’t even think about gear at all. Any good musician tells you gear is not important. So I’m merely a mediocre musician because I’m totally obsessed with unloved gear.

Diya: Yeah, no, I think there’s multiple sides to that. I think…When you are more so an electronic and timbre focused musician, I feel like it’s really, really easy to get kind of sucked into gear. And I think that’s really interesting too. I think there’s a lot of value to being a gear nerd, you know, having gear acquisition syndrome, as they call it. I think it’s fun.

Jamie: I don’t think that it is inherently important to music. I think any way that you can make music that is real to who you are and that is moving or potentially moving to someone who listens to it is really all that matters. It doesn’t matter how you do it. I find it enjoyable and inspiring nerding out on gear. But I don’t ever want to give anybody the impression that in order to make good music you have to have “good” or “nice” equipment. You don’t. Absolutely not.

Diya: 100%. Yeah. Thank you so much for chatting with me. It’s been really great to just hear about your philosophy on composing. I know that, like, a lot of my questions tend to be really open ended and really specific. So it’s really interesting to hear your take on them and even pushback on some of the questions too, because most of the artists I interview usually give me, like, a pretty straightforward answer, or a story, but you’re like, “no actually, this is how I think about it” and that’s really cool. So thank you so much. It’s been really great.

Jamie: Oh, it’s clear you put a lot of thought into them, and I appreciate that a lot. Thank you.

Diya: Thank you so much, Jamie.